Eyes on Earth Episode 117 – Preparing for Landsat Next, Part 1

TOM ADAMSON:
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Eyes on Earth, a podcast produced at the USGS EROS Center. Our podcast focuses on our ever-changing planet and on the people here at EROS and across the globe who use remote sensing to monitor and study the health of Earth. My name is Tom Adamson.

Landsats 8 and 9 both orbit at 438 miles above the Earth’s surface and collect imagery that is used to improve the quality of our lives, monitoring water quality and crop production, forest health, growing cities, changes to our coastlines, and much more. Now it’s time to start thinking about what’s next. And that’s the name of the next Landsat mission.

Once Landsat next reaches orbit, targeted for around 2030, the trio of new satellites will be even better in the detail and amount of data they will collect, and even though launch is a few years away yet, lots of people are already busy working to prepare for the launch and prepare for the large amount of data that will be coming.

We’re spending the next two episodes of Eyes on Earth on this topic. Today is Part 1, and we’re talking about how the Landsat Next mission will be different from previous Landsat missions and its benefits to science and society. Part 2 will have some more technical information about the ground system, processing the data, and validating the data.

First up in Part 1, we’ll talk to Tim Newman, the Program Coordinator for National Land Imaging at the USGS. So, Tim, what all do you do as the Program Coordinator for National Land Imaging?

TIM NEWMAN:
Well, Tom, beyond doing podcasts with folks like you, I also am responsible for all of the activities that the National Land Imaging program funds across the federal government. So that supports the work of nearly 150 federal government personnel and 300 contractor staff at dozens of locations across the country and that includes EROS. So my office is responsible for providing overall policy guidance and oversight of all the activities, from flying satellites to distributing data. We also formulate and execute budgets. So all of the budget work associated with a $100 million program, interfacing within the administration and congressional staff, working with external partners like NASA, NOAA, and international agencies like ESA. So a lot of interesting responsibilities, developing science and applications is another aspect. So the job never gets boring.

ADAMSON:
So let’s talk generally about how Landsat Next will be different from previous Landsats. What are the big differences going to be?

NEWMAN:
So we’ve been managing Landsat missions since the ‘70s, so it’s really has been a succession of satellite systems that have gotten progressively better with every generation. Landsat Next is going to be more capable than Landsats 8 and 9, meeting far more user needs. And so it’s going to collect more detailed imagery more often for characterizing the Earth’s surface as it changes. So these include applications across the farm belt, ranches, urban areas, coastal areas, and many other areas impacted by drought and wildfire. But at the same time, we’re going to sustain that 50-year archive of data that we’ve collected from Landsat.

So Landsat Next is actually going to have three satellites built together and launched together, flying in formation. And they’ll achieve a 6-day revisit over any spot on the Earth’s surface. Today’s Landsats, with two of them up there, we get about 8-day revisit. And so we’re going to have better revisit, we’re flying a little bit lower, a lower orbit, so that’s going to give us better spatial resolution. So instead of 30 meters, we’re going to be able to see down to 10 meters for some of our spectral bands. And so that’s exciting because it gives you more information on what’s happening on the Earth’s surface. So the instruments for this next mission, the imaging instruments are called the Landsat Next instrument suite, or LandIS. LandIS is going to have 26 bands, 26 spectral bands compared to today’s Landsats that have 11 bands each. So the bottom line is we’re going to be able to see a lot more detail on the Earth’s surface and meet more user needs.

ADAMSON:
Why does the world need Landsat Next?

NEWMAN:
So the world is continually changing. Our science and applications have to change to meet those changes. So we have to be able to see the many changes that are happening on the Earth’s surface. If you go back to the early ‘70s, when we launched the first Landsat satellite, the population of the Earth was maybe 4 billion at most. Today, we’re double that. Today we have 8 billion people. There’s been enormous stresses on our natural resources, our ecosystems, agriculture, and our cities, and so the Landsat record allows you to actually go back and see those stresses, see the changes on the Earth’s surface that have been happening for the last 50 years. That data is really important for making decisions about policies related to natural resources development and our economy.

ADAMSON:
How is Landsat Next important to you and me and our listeners?

NEWMAN:
Landsat Next represents the very first time in the history Landsat that we started that mission with a user needs campaign. We went out for over a year and talked to folks all across the community. And so we tried to understand, how would you use this system to meet your needs? What are your breakthrough needs, when it comes to agriculture, monitoring your fields, forestry, water resources, responding to disasters, and urbanization? So a lot of different applications and we spent a lot of time with those users to understand what is it that you really need in the future system. And we added those capabilities to this mission so that we can meet those needs. So it’s not only going to extend our record of, this unique record of global land change, but it’s going to add significant new capability in spectral band, spatial and temporal.

So we think with this new system, we’re going to be able to monitor crop health and consumptive water use more frequently and at smaller scales, so subfield scales. That data is going to help farmers economize their water use and fertilizer, which will lead to more efficient and productive crop yields. That’s going to preserve water resources and improve our ecosystems. All those are really big benefits that we’re all going to realize once Landsat Next is operational.

ADAMSON:
Do you think Landsat Next represents the biggest jump in technological improvements that Landsat has ever had?

NEWMAN:
I believe so, yes. We think that Landsat Next will be more useful to future generations than current Landsats are today. So this isn’t just adding technology because we can, because we want to add cool things to the next satellite. These are all improvements that were added as a result of engagement with the users. So I’m excited by what Landsat Next is going to bring to the user community.

ADAMSON:
And I expect the Landsat science community is already excited to use the improved data from Landsat Next. Let’s bring in Zhuoting Wu, who also goes by Z, to talk about the science. Z is the Earth Observation Applications Coordinator at the USGS National Land Imaging program. Z, first tell us what that role means.

ZHUOTING WU:
Hi Tom, thanks for having me. So my role is to oversee the science portfolio for the program and also coordinate our science activities with other programs across the Bureau and with other federal agencies. So overall it’s promoting remote sensing science and research across all disciplines. Prior to taking on this new role, I was leading the user needs activity to provide science application user needs to help shape the Landsat Next science requirements architecture to bring enhanced capability from Landsat Next to our broader science user community.

ADAMSON:
So let’s talk about the benefits of the improved data to science. What are some specific studies that will be improved with Landsat Next?

WU:
There will be so many. I’ll just start with saying the continuity of Landsat science quality observation will be carried on by Landsat Next to continue, by that time, almost 60 years of Earth observation from space from Landsat. But Landsat Next provides improvements pretty much in all aspects. So spatially to see finer details at field scale for crop mapping, mapping smaller water bodies, monitoring urban heat and fire volcano hotspots.

ADAMSON:
Let’s also bring in Chris Crawford, USGS research physical scientist. Chris, we’re talking about the benefits of the improved data that Landsat Next will bring to science.

CHRIS CRAWFORD:
Yeah. Thanks, Tom. The really cool thing about Landsat Next is that it maintains continuity with prior Landsat missions. It improves the observational synergy with Europe’s Sentinel-2 series, and it really enables emerging applications in the remote sensing disciplines of water quality and aquatics, water quantity through snow and ice sheet hydrology, vegetation composition health and function, crop residue and soil conservation, and mineral mapping in the infrared spectrum specifically, and these measurements that Landsat will provide are going to really advance scientific and application studies in these areas.

ADAMSON:
What about the quicker revisit time? How will that benefit science?

CRAWFORD:
So I think it’s fair to say that all Landsat science applications, both traditional and emerging, will benefit from increased temporal imaging. But the applications that track fast changing surface processes stand to benefit the most. So, for example, for agriculture, Landsat Next will improve spectral discrimination between different crop types, be able to capture key periods of greening and senescence in plants, often referred to as phenology, and then mapping agricultural practices that modulate soil health and the impacts of wet-dry cycles related to weather and climate variability. Other benefits of Landsat Next temporal imaging include mapping mountain snow cover patterns and processes such as melt onset or mapping the impurity concentrations on the surface layer, such as dust or soot, which requires frequent observations and additional spectral sampling during the late winter and spring to initialize hydrological forecast of water quantity in reservoirs, for example. Improved temporal imaging will also increase the number of clear images in Earth regions that have persistent cloudiness, such as tropical mountain and maritime environments.

ADAMSON:
There’s a lot of places on Earth that are especially cloudy, and this just gives you more opportunities.

CRAWFORD:
That’s correct.

ADAMSON:
What are some examples of benefits from the higher resolution?

CRAWFORD:
Yeah, so, Landsat Next’s higher spatial resolution will improve the boundary delineation between specific land cover types. Landsat Next will be able to resolve within agricultural field process and patterns such as small agricultural parcels versus large agricultural parcels. Landsat Next will be able to resolve smaller water bodies and shorelines and really improve the ability to map smaller scale biomass burning that currently contributes an unknown amount of CO2 to the atmosphere in the form of greenhouse gas emissions.

WU:
Another aspect for Landsat Next, it will provide double the amount of spectral bands on Landsats 8-9, so what we call superspectral versus the multispectral on Landsats 8-9. So what’s super about it, it provides targeted narrow spectral bands to address emerging applications such as harmful algal bloom detection, monitoring vegetation condition and stress, mapping snow and ice and glacier, estimating water availability and use, support geology and mineral mapping.

ADAMSON:
What are scientists looking forward to the most with the additional spectral bands?

CRAWFORD:
With the additional spectral bands, it’s going to be possible to learn more about Earth’s surface and its material composition to directly measure visible light scattering peaks of excited phenomena such as upper water column chlorophyll concentrations, or light absorption of snow grains in the presence of liquid water in the infrared wavelengths. And then in the thermal infrared region, Landsat Next is adding three channels to simultaneously retrieve surface emissivity, which will improve surface temperature, accuracy, and precision.

ADAMSON:
When you mention chlorophyll composition, is that a capability that previous Landsats did not have?

CRAWFORD:
So that’s just one example where we didn’t have that capability on our current generation of observatories, Landsat 8 and Landsat 9, because we weren’t making those spectral measurements. So Landsat Next is going to improve the ability to retrieve water column properties that are relevant to the aquatic science application user community.

WU:
I mean, I love talking about our new spectral bands on Landsat Next because a lot of effort from the USGS user needs activity went into identifying these key specific spectral bands to support new and emerging applications. I feel like the whole user community are excited about these additional spectral bands. Water quality is a key priority application. So Landsat Next added several targeted spectral bands to detect those pigments in water as key indicators of harmful algal bloom for early detection and warning, also for cryosphere, that’s applications looking at snow and ice. It’s also a targeted application area for those new spectral bands, where we’ll be able to retrieve three phases of water from Landsat Next by having the water vapor, the liquid water, and ice absorption for hydrological applications. We also work closely with experts in USGS and USDA to identify the narrow spectral bands to quantify crop residue, which will help USDA monitor soil conservation practices. Thermal infrared region we are improving from 2 to 5 channels on Landsat Next, so that will help us have better, more accurate temperature retrieval. So this will benefit like urban heat and water use monitoring additional thermal bands will also provide information for mineral type and surface composition. Everyone will benefit from these additional spectral bands, and I’m sure there will be new use and innovative science coming out of this superspectral Landsat Next that we don’t even know right now. So I’m really looking forward to seeing all the exciting new science coming out of Landsat Next.

ADAMSON:
And the thing is, up to Landsat 9, it was already really good at identifying lots of those things you mentioned. And Landsat Next is going to be even better.

WU:
Yes, you know the world is changing around us at an ever increasing pace. So these targeted spectral bands and other improvements are really addressing those most pressing society issues that we’re facing in this changing world. I feel personally very fortunate to join a program during this planning phase for Landsat Next. So this is the first time in the Landsat program history that user needs play a key role in shaping the requirements. So Landsat Next is under partnership between USGS and NASA. USGS are responsible for collecting user community needs to help inform the Landsat Next architecture. So user needs information was a key building block in architecture study that defined the draft requirements for Landsat Next. So not only we reach out to users, talk to them understanding their applications and needs, and provide that information back to the USGS-NASA Landsat Next team, but we’re also throughout this process building that relationship and advocacy and excitement from the science user community. They love to talk to us about their use, their needs, and then we’re also engaged heavily with the Landsat Science Team for academia input. We also got some state and local input from AmericaView. We convened a federal agency expert panel. We’re also got non federal input from the Landsat advisory groups. It’s truly a collective team effort from users from all communities who are just so passionate about the Landsat program and the future of Landsat.

ADAMSON:
Will Landsat Next be able to feed into big datasets like the National Land Cover Database?

CRAWFORD:
The National Land Cover Database is a high quality product that’s produced by USGS at EROS and has really been able to leverage the Landsat time series. So Landsat Next is going to provide the continuity of observations of these heritage measurements, so the NLCD project and program for example will be able to continue what they’re doing and then also be able to expand their capabilities as a result of more frequent data, higher spatial resolution, and more spectral bands.

ADAMSON:
Personally, what are you looking forward to the most with Landsat Next once it’s in orbit?

CRAWFORD:
When we launch Landsat Next, we’ll be approaching a nearly 60-year observational record. So there’s just so much excitement and so much capability and so much of what’s possible. And I think that, you know, we’ve got a big user community out there using Landsat data. And I think as more and more of the users learn about what USGS and NASA are planning in terms of Landsat Next observations, it’s going to attract more users, and they’ll be able to learn about what’s coming, what’s possible, and then what scientific discoveries are on the horizon for an ever changing earth. We’re also just trying to educate here as well about the fact that there is a lot of thought that’s being put into this and a lot of work because there are so many things that we are already measuring, but there are many things that we’re not. That’s what I think Landsat Next is going to do is it’s just simply going to provide a lot more observations.

ADAMSON:
A lot more possibilities for further innovation, things we don’t even know are coming yet.

CRAWFORD:
Yeah, absolutely. You’re absolutely right. And I think that just with the current generation of technology that’s occurring out there now, you just start combining the frequent revisits from Landsat Next with the Sentinel-2 system and then all the imaging spectroscopy demonstration missions that are flying now and that are being planned, the data volumes are just going to be absolutely incredible and so things really start to get pretty, pretty real here in terms of launch of Landsat Next in the next six to seven years. I mean, it feels like a long time, but it’s going to go quick and there’s a lot of work to do between now and then.

WU:
And I think we’re all excited to see like all the science coming out of Landsat Next. So hopefully I’m just sharing their enthusiasm for the next generation of Landsat Next, and then even the next mission beyond after Landsat Next Next. So just the program, I’m so proud to be part of and I hope this goes for next 50 to 100 years.

ADAMSON:
Let’s turn back to Tim Newman. Tim, tell us more about how Landsat Next will impact global environmental monitoring and resource management.

NEWMAN:
Building on some of the things I’ve said earlier, the new capabilities for Landsat Next are going to definitely improve global science and applications, and we do that in concert with our partners. So we have partners across the federal civil government, like NASA and NOAA, commercial sector, and international organizations from all around world. So our satellites and products are becoming more interoperable with those foreign partners and other types of satellites. So what that means is that users will be able to take our data and also take data from other systems because there are so many other Earth observation systems up there today. So that essentially gives users a lot more data to use for their applications. And so that in essence amplifies both national and global science and environmental and resource management.

ADAMSON:
I’m sure it costs a few dollars to develop and launch these satellites. What is the value, the return on investment, that Landsat has delivered and will continue to deliver to U.S. and world economies?

NEWMAN:
That’s a great question. You’re correct that building, launching, and operating these missions is really a huge undertaking. It takes many years from the original designs to actually building the hardware to launching and operating these missions. But the good news is there are so many economic and societal benefits that come from Landsat being an operational capability. We’ve talked about some of the economic benefits and crop and water management, but there are many others. We’ve had studies that have shown that the economic benefit just to the U.S. from Landsat is on the order of $2 billion a year. So Landsat data is that infrastructure that’s out there that’s used by private citizens, the commercial sector, academia, training for our remote sensing students out there in colleges, and that return is on the order of $2 billion a year and it even goes beyond that globally. The estimate is almost 4 billion a year. So that societal return far exceeds the amount of investment that’s needed by NASA and USGS as we build these systems. And just the fact that the systems are relied upon to increase our food security, to respond to disasters and many other societal benefits. This is a great return on investment from the American taxpayer.

ADAMSON:
Well, along those lines, what all needs to be done before launch?

NEWMAN:
Well, we’re really at the beginning stages of this effort with our partners at NASA, so NASA and USGS together developed these missions. NASA focuses on satellite design and build and launch. And we focus on the ground system, how to operate the satellite and then collect, archive, process, and distribute the data. So we’re in what’s called phase A and this development, NASA’s acquisition phase A. So we’re refining the mission concept, the triplet satellites that I talked about earlier and evaluating what technologies we’ll need to make sure that the mission is a success. There are a lot of studies that go on in this phase that will allow us to make decisions as to what’s the right way to build this mission, the different components. So what’s called LandIS, which I mentioned earlier, the Landsat Next Instrument Suite, procurement is in its final stages, so hopefully this summer we’ll be moving in to buy the instruments that will be part of this next mission. That should happen this year. And then the spacecraft bus that the instruments ride on will be next year, so we’re on track. It takes time to develop these missions, but we have really strong community support to do this mission from a wide sector of users across the country. It’s amazing that it all comes together so well, but hopefully in the near 2030 time period will be launching this mission.

ADAMSON:
And I better clarify, the intention is for Landsat Next to be made publicly available, as all the other Landsat data is.

NEWMAN:
Correct. That’s one of the foundations of Landsat, in the last decade is free and open data, so everyone can get access to it that you’ll know that it’s there in the future. So you can rely on it for your applications, build it into your work processes, so completely free and open data for everyone to benefit from.

ADAMSON:
How will partnerships influence the success of Landsat Next. Talk about any collaborations with international space agencies or research institutions.

NEWMAN:
Yeah, from the very beginning, back to the 1970s, Landsat has been an international activity, so we used international partners to develop ground stations around the world. Those ground stations would collect the Landsat data as it flew overhead, and then provide the data to us, sometimes shipping tapes to us in the old days and then doing it electronically in current days. But the countries then get real-time access to the observations, so it helps them be more knowledgeable in management of their local resources. But it also increases our ability to collect and manage the data from a global dataset like Landsat. So our partners are even probably working more closely today than ever. We have been integrating our datasets across Europe, Australia, the Americas, India and Africa. Our work with those partners helps us access more data than just Landsat, and provides that data back to our U.S. users. So we can leverage the expertise of these other countries that have datasets like ours. And that in turn helps us do better science. More data means better science.

ADAMSON:
Let’s jump ahead to once Landsat Next launches, and let’s assume that Landsats 8 and 9 are still operating at that time. The Landsat Next satellites will be in different orbits from Landsats 8 and 9, so we don’t have to do anything with them, do we? Can we just leave them where they are and let them keep operating?

NEWMAN:
You’re absolutely right. Landsat 8 and 9 are currently operating very well and you know, hopefully knock on wood, we hope that they will continue to operate into the 2030s. If that continues, we’ll just continue to operate those and we’ll collect far more data with all those satellites in orbit I will add, though, that most of the time, satellites don’t last until their fuel runs out. The satellites usually have technical challenges that pop up as they get older, just like all of us have our challenges. And so the expectation, you know, by the time we launch Landsat Next Landsat 8 will be nearly 20 years old. And so if it’s still operating, it will probably be doing so in a way that’s better than a lot of other missions. We’re hoping for the best, but as with all of our missions, we’re planning for whatever outcome awaits us.

ADAMSON
What is the design life of Landsat Next?

NEWMAN:
Landsat Next will have a 5-year design life similar to what we had with Landsats 8 and 9. So design life means that the systems are built to standards that will generally allow them to meet that 5-year timeline at a minimum, and then hopefully they’ll last many years beyond that. Being in orbit is a hostile place. You have extreme temperature variations that can damage these missions, and so it takes a lot of care and feeding to keep these satellites healthy, and I think we have the best flight OPS teams of anyone in the country and around the world. But things still happen on these satellites and so we have to always be ready for that.

ADAMSON:
Is there anything else that you would like to add?

NEWMAN:
It’s been very personally rewarding to have worked on this mission from the very beginning, from the initial thought that we would need to do a study on what we’re going to build after Landsat 9 launches and hopefully stay all the way through to the launch of the mission and the operational reception of data. It’s very rewarding for these very lengthy projects that can take a decade or more to see one go all the way from the beginning to the end, and a lot of folks had a lot to do with this mission, hundreds and hundreds of people around the country have had an impact on Landsat Next already. So it’s an amazing mission and I’m excited by what this mission can deliver for the taxpayers of the United States.

ADAMSON:
Thank you, Tim, Z, and Chris for talking to us about Landsat Next and the benefits to science and society it will bring. And thank you listeners. Look for Part 2, which will have some more technical information about preparations being made for the ground system, processing the data, and validating the data from Landsat Next. Check out our social media accounts to watch for our newest episodes. You can also subscribe to us on Apple and YouTube podcasts.

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